The articles employs the concept of Affordances, which comes largely from JJ Gibson, a brilliant psychologist who studied perception.
I used to teach a course on Gibson... so I'd like to clarify what he meant by affordances, which is a bit more powerful of an idea than presented in the article
His insight was that how you perceive something is not objective, but subjective. Or as he would say, the subjective turns out to be objective reality. So affordances reflects the fact that how you relate to something is in terms of what it affords you. A good example: An excellent downhill skier sees a near verticle drop as easy-peasy and not dangerous. The same skier learning to snowboard pulls up at this veritable cliff and says, holy shit, that's steep! Same physical world changes depending on how you relate to it on the present circumstances
JJ Gibson used such ideas to overthrow the object reality idea of perception, suggesting that perception is inherently a being-in-the-world phenomenon, not an objective knowing of the world (that exists, but is secondary and stripped of subjective experience.)
why_at 10 hours ago [-]
>(“What’s up?” is one of the most dreadful texts to get; it’s short for “Hello, I’d like you to entertain me now.”) And asking your partner question after question and resenting them when they don’t return the favor isn’t generosity; it’s social entrapment
I'm not a great texter but this resonated with me and I'd never really thought about it. It's annoying when I don't feel like texting and I just get bombarded with questions demanding a response. On the other hand I can sympathize if they want to chat and I just don't.
I feel like I've been on both sides of all the examples in this piece depending on what kind of mood I'm in
uniq7 9 hours ago [-]
And then, if you don't make any questions, they may think that you don't care enough about them. Also, if you just often share information that is interesting to you, some may think you are tedious/boring.
Socializing is really hard.
salicaster 6 hours ago [-]
Notice that both your sentences are trying to control the other person's reaction and feelings towards you. If that is your idea of socializing, I would come to the same conclusion.
As cliche as it is, find things in others that genuinely interest you. And don't expect it be a fruitful experience. There are so many reasons the socializing ritual can end up being unfulfilling.
neogodless 10 hours ago [-]
I often feel like a "giver" in conversations, asking all the questions but never being given opportunities to share my own stories or viewpoint...
I seek and value friends that DO ask about me, and then try to remind myself to not take it for granted, and return the favor to them!
This gives some additional lens, though, to be flexible with "takers" and give them credit for putting themselves out there.
skobes 10 hours ago [-]
Once I realized that some people expect and are happy for you to jump in with unprompted thoughts or stories, it became easier for me to be intentional about doing so.
I think I'm a lot better now than when I was younger at adapting to a wide range of conversational styles, mostly just from paying more attention to that dynamic.
Do you feel like your conversational toolbox has evolved over time? :)
neogodless 10 hours ago [-]
Ha, yes a bit! Not interrupting or talking over someone was drilled into me in childhood, but exposure to different family dynamics helped me learn that it's not a universal value, and that I can adapt and adjust my communication styles for different groups and situations.
That's still a bit of a struggle to push myself to "speak out of turn" and ensure my voice is included in a discussion.
>Givers think that conversations unfold as a series of invitations; takers think conversations unfold as a series of declarations.
I don't really understand the thesis outlined in the article. "Givers" and "takers" are defined like this, but it actually sounds like the two types of conversationalists are "actives" and "passives", where actives seek to move the conversation forward and passives let others move it forward. A giver-and-taker conversation where both participants are alternatingly active can work. The giver asks a question and the taker answers it but then adds something of their own that doesn't let the conversation grind to a halt.
Example:
A: Hey, have you heard about X? (giver, active)
B: Oh, I hate X. I think Y. (taker, active)
A: Woah, hang on. I'm not so sure about Y. (taker, active)
B: Oh, yeah? Do you think Z? (giver, active)
In my experience, the absolute worst conversations I've had were those where I felt I was the only one putting in any effort, trying to come up with topic after topic only to have them peter out in under a minute, followed by silence.
I also don't know that people are necessarily fixed in their roles, be as giver, taker, passive, or active. In fact, if I'd have to guess, an engaging conversation has the participants constantly switch roles with the flow, depending on how much they have to say on a given topic.
So I think a corollary from all this is that a conversation breaks down when an active participant switches to passive expecting the other to become active, when in fact the other person just wants to be passive, or when two passive people try to have a conversation, in which case nothing happens at all.
devinplatt 6 hours ago [-]
On a quick skim, my interpretation is that the article critiques the classic (but simplistic) advice that asking questions and letting the other person talk more than you is the key to having a good conversation, especially to ensuring that the other person is happy with the conversation.
The classic advice is basically a caution against being a boring monologuer. And it has its merit. But this is an extra "level 2 conversationalist" lesson. It's the old: "OK remember those rules you learned in level 1? Here's when you can break them".
Th affordance analogy is that you want to give yourself and your conversation partner an abundance of options and opportunities for good conversation. Asking questions often is a way of doing that, but it's not the only way, and not all questions are equally helpful.
perfmode 10 hours ago [-]
I wish it were easier to just say to someone. Hey I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but I’m feeling to end this conversation now. Is it OK that we bring it to an end?
daveguy 10 hours ago [-]
Just say "Hey, I gotta run. It was nice talking to you." Or something to that effect. Most people aren't going to get upset if you need to wrap up a conversation. And if they do get upset (assuming they aren't having an emergency), it's a red flag.
Alternatives: "can we talk later, I'm really busy with ___."
Or in a work setting, "I'm in the middle of something, do you mind sending an email?"
Social settings, excuse yourself to the bathroom, they'll move on.
If you don't like the conversation, "do you mind if we talk about something else?".
There are tons of ways to wrap up or avoid conversation. The more honest you are the better. And take note of how others gracefully end conversations with you and use those phrases too.
markhahn 7 hours ago [-]
why not use "affordances"? it's the correct word, and even though it's low-frequency, wouldn't that pull people into the article?
devinplatt 7 hours ago [-]
The article mentions affordances. I assume the title uses doorknobs because that's a more familiar word as you point out.
TypeDeck 4 hours ago [-]
[dead]
ITniggah 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Rendered at 08:33:54 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
I used to teach a course on Gibson... so I'd like to clarify what he meant by affordances, which is a bit more powerful of an idea than presented in the article
His insight was that how you perceive something is not objective, but subjective. Or as he would say, the subjective turns out to be objective reality. So affordances reflects the fact that how you relate to something is in terms of what it affords you. A good example: An excellent downhill skier sees a near verticle drop as easy-peasy and not dangerous. The same skier learning to snowboard pulls up at this veritable cliff and says, holy shit, that's steep! Same physical world changes depending on how you relate to it on the present circumstances
JJ Gibson used such ideas to overthrow the object reality idea of perception, suggesting that perception is inherently a being-in-the-world phenomenon, not an objective knowing of the world (that exists, but is secondary and stripped of subjective experience.)
I'm not a great texter but this resonated with me and I'd never really thought about it. It's annoying when I don't feel like texting and I just get bombarded with questions demanding a response. On the other hand I can sympathize if they want to chat and I just don't.
I feel like I've been on both sides of all the examples in this piece depending on what kind of mood I'm in
Socializing is really hard.
As cliche as it is, find things in others that genuinely interest you. And don't expect it be a fruitful experience. There are so many reasons the socializing ritual can end up being unfulfilling.
I seek and value friends that DO ask about me, and then try to remind myself to not take it for granted, and return the favor to them!
This gives some additional lens, though, to be flexible with "takers" and give them credit for putting themselves out there.
I think I'm a lot better now than when I was younger at adapting to a wide range of conversational styles, mostly just from paying more attention to that dynamic.
Do you feel like your conversational toolbox has evolved over time? :)
That's still a bit of a struggle to push myself to "speak out of turn" and ensure my voice is included in a discussion.
Good conversations have lots of doorknobs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35874183 - May 2023 (20 comments)
Good conversations have lots of doorknobs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32542260 - Aug 2022 (149 comments)
I don't really understand the thesis outlined in the article. "Givers" and "takers" are defined like this, but it actually sounds like the two types of conversationalists are "actives" and "passives", where actives seek to move the conversation forward and passives let others move it forward. A giver-and-taker conversation where both participants are alternatingly active can work. The giver asks a question and the taker answers it but then adds something of their own that doesn't let the conversation grind to a halt.
Example:
A: Hey, have you heard about X? (giver, active)
B: Oh, I hate X. I think Y. (taker, active)
A: Woah, hang on. I'm not so sure about Y. (taker, active)
B: Oh, yeah? Do you think Z? (giver, active)
In my experience, the absolute worst conversations I've had were those where I felt I was the only one putting in any effort, trying to come up with topic after topic only to have them peter out in under a minute, followed by silence.
I also don't know that people are necessarily fixed in their roles, be as giver, taker, passive, or active. In fact, if I'd have to guess, an engaging conversation has the participants constantly switch roles with the flow, depending on how much they have to say on a given topic.
So I think a corollary from all this is that a conversation breaks down when an active participant switches to passive expecting the other to become active, when in fact the other person just wants to be passive, or when two passive people try to have a conversation, in which case nothing happens at all.
The classic advice is basically a caution against being a boring monologuer. And it has its merit. But this is an extra "level 2 conversationalist" lesson. It's the old: "OK remember those rules you learned in level 1? Here's when you can break them".
Th affordance analogy is that you want to give yourself and your conversation partner an abundance of options and opportunities for good conversation. Asking questions often is a way of doing that, but it's not the only way, and not all questions are equally helpful.
Alternatives: "can we talk later, I'm really busy with ___."
Or in a work setting, "I'm in the middle of something, do you mind sending an email?"
Social settings, excuse yourself to the bathroom, they'll move on.
If you don't like the conversation, "do you mind if we talk about something else?".
There are tons of ways to wrap up or avoid conversation. The more honest you are the better. And take note of how others gracefully end conversations with you and use those phrases too.